a cautionary tale

[Jim D]

You can view these posts not as a cry for help, but rather as me
documenting the end of my current duo / band. I'm not asking for
advice on how to save it, it's toast. It's not over yet, as in we're
still working, haven't called it quits, but the handwriting is on the
wall. It's over.

Spent hours today on the phone with band girl, discussing ...... yep
.... volume. This is a simple thing, either we turn down as requested
by management, or they will replace us at some point. Simple business.
Satisfy the customer, or lose the deal.

She says she wants to play at a reasonable volume. She says that, but
she MEANS reasonable by her ( or some of her near deaf friends )
desires, not anyone elses. I ask her where this whole " play loud "
thing comes from. It's not like people can't hear us at 90 or 95 db (
measured in the back of the room ). She says she measured one of my
slow songs in the mid to low 80 db range, and wonders how anyone could
possibly hear that. Says, sure they can " hear " it, but it's better
louder.

We talked levels out in the audience. We talked levels on stage. We
talked in ears. We talked about audience people asking us to do this
or that.

Basically, we talked about things that band people should learn ( or
just understand ) before they ever play out for an audience.

What I realise now is that she has dug her heels in, and isn't about to
actually change anything. She'll be on me about monitor mixes and that
we aren't " loud enough out in the room " until the end.

So, just as a sort of message in a bottle from someone on a sinking
ship, I'll post now and then how it goes down. Learn from watching us
fail, or don't. I'm just gonna offer up the story.


JimD


ps, when it's all over, I'll go back to being a solo guy full time. And
I'll be wiser, having learned just how stubbornly determined to fail
some people can be.

[Jim D]

Sad and angry and mostly just sick and tired of this situation. Band
girl and I spent most of yesterday on the phone with each other, me
trying to figure out just how to satisfy her re the pa levels.
Basically, that's not gonna happen. Reason being, she wants us to play
at some level that creates " excitement " ... whatever that point might
be. Says things like, lower volumes out front are like being at a
funeral.


JimD

[Ouisie]

From what's being said, it would appear that it's the contrast between
playing better venues, as opposed to booze bars for drunks, where hearing
loss happens most, but rather places where there's more intelligence and
bands that are too loud will be asked to turn their volume knobs
counterclockwise, that's bringing this situation to the surface.

Perhaps this is new territory, without all the familiar Idiots who want to
go deaf while they kill the pain with booze.

It might seem disorienting to play better gigs at better venues where
preserving the ability to enjoy Music is preserved rather than Assaulted.

So the bottom line is probably to learn if moving up and out of the
Cesspool of the Bottom Feeders is the right way to go...or whether it's
better to do, as Proverbs 26:11 puts it:

As a dog returneth to his VOMIT, so a FOOL returneth to his FOLLY.

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie
From what's being said, it would appear that it's the contrast between
playing better venues, as opposed to booze bars for drunks, where
hearing loss happens most, but rather places where there's more
intelligence and bands that are too loud will be asked to turn their
volume knobs counterclockwise, that's bringing this situation to the
surface.
Perhaps this is new territory, without all the familiar Idiots who want
to go deaf while they kill the pain with booze.
It might seem disorienting to play better gigs at better venues where
preserving the ability to enjoy Music is preserved rather than
Assaulted.
So the bottom line is probably to learn if moving up and out of the
Cesspool of the Bottom Feeders is the right way to go...or whether it's
As a dog returneth to his VOMIT, so a FOOL returneth to his FOLLY.
Ouisie

I believe you hit the target. She just doesn't want to work better
places if that means dropping the levels. Really tho, maybe it's that
she doesn't know how. She genuinely just doesn't understand some people
want to listen the music, not be pummeled by it.

JimD

[Ouisie]

I believe you hit the target. She just doesn't want to work better places
if that means dropping the levels. Really tho, maybe it's that she
doesn't know how. She genuinely just doesn't understand some people want
to listen the music, not be pummeled by it.

JimD

Listening should be pleasure, not torture!
And it's also a refreshing departure from the boozed crowds, unless there's
a preference for being around boozed up Deaf Idiots.

And to think it started with the drummer - that was when I never heard of
her complaints - while the drummer was a problem, but now that he's
apparently gone, it seems to be her 'turn' now.

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
I believe you hit the target. She just doesn't want to work better
places if that means dropping the levels. Really tho, maybe it's that
she doesn't know how. She genuinely just doesn't understand some people
want to listen the music, not be pummeled by it.

JimD
Listening should be pleasure, not torture!
And it's also a refreshing departure from the boozed crowds, unless
there's a preference for being around boozed up Deaf Idiots.
And to think it started with the drummer - that was when I never heard
of her complaints - while the drummer was a problem, but now that
he's apparently gone, it seems to be her 'turn' now.
Ouisie

The loud drummer was a bigger problem than her. Looking back, perhaps
a lot of her protecting his behavior was because she knew full well
that if he left, her preference for bar level stage volume would be out
in the open.

This would be so simple to fix. In ears for her.

---


on a related note. A buddy of mine is looking at a new bass rig. Wants
a pair of single 12 cabs. Easier to transport, he says. Talking to him
yesterday he was on about ports and mirror image cabs and stacking
them. Then he made a comment about, " well, yeah, they would be loud
and directional, but that's ok as long as they aren't pointed at me ".

Again, that insanity of wanting a loud rig, but not wanting to have to
take that abuse oneself. Bizarre.

It's a bar mindset. You have to generate all the sound from the stage,
from a backline. If these people EVER worked a decent stage or venue,
where they actually can and DO mic things, they'd lose their minds,
wouldn't they ?

Well, of course. This reaction to lower stage levels and letting the
FOH do it's job is just what Band Girl seems unable to adjust too.


JimD

[Ouisie]

The loud drummer was a bigger problem than her. Looking back, perhaps a
lot of her protecting his behavior was because she knew full well that if
he left, her preference for bar level stage volume would be out in the
open.

That's a shame.

This would be so simple to fix. In ears for her.

---

But does she want it fixed in any way?

on a related note. A buddy of mine is looking at a new bass rig. Wants a
pair of single 12 cabs. Easier to transport, he says. Talking to him
yesterday he was on about ports and mirror image cabs and stacking them.
Then he made a comment about, " well, yeah, they would be loud and
directional, but that's ok as long as they aren't pointed at me ".

If they're bass cabs, it shouldn't be much of a big deal which way they're
pointed, because of the low frequencies, so long as they're at least in the
quarter space.

Again, that insanity of wanting a loud rig, but not wanting to have to
take that abuse oneself. Bizarre.

More like downright Hostile!
I'd suspect such a person's motives for being in a band in the first place
are less than pure.

It's a bar mindset. You have to generate all the sound from the stage,
from a backline.

I've always hated such a situation, another reason for wanting to play
better venues.

If these people EVER worked a decent stage or venue, where they actually
can and DO mic things, they'd lose their minds, wouldn't they ?

They'd never have anything decent until they first change their Immature
attitudes!

Well, of course. This reaction to lower stage levels and letting the FOH
do it's job is just what Band Girl seems unable to adjust too.

JimD

I'm sure she needs practice at that, but it's going to take the right
attitude to see that through.

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
The loud drummer was a bigger problem than her. Looking back, perhaps
a lot of her protecting his behavior was because she knew full well
that if he left, her preference for bar level stage volume would be out
in the open.

That's a shame.

Post by Jim D
This would be so simple to fix. In ears for her.

---
But does she want it fixed in any way?

Post by Jim D
on a related note. A buddy of mine is looking at a new bass rig. Wants
a pair of single 12 cabs. Easier to transport, he says. Talking to him
yesterday he was on about ports and mirror image cabs and stacking
them. Then he made a comment about, " well, yeah, they would be loud
and directional, but that's ok as long as they aren't pointed at me ".

If they're bass cabs, it shouldn't be much of a big deal which way
they're pointed, because of the low frequencies, so long as they're at
least in the quarter space.

Post by Jim D
Again, that insanity of wanting a loud rig, but not wanting to have to
take that abuse oneself. Bizarre.

More like downright Hostile!
I'd suspect such a person's motives for being in a band in the first
place are less than pure.

Post by Jim D
It's a bar mindset. You have to generate all the sound from the stage,
from a backline.

I've always hated such a situation, another reason for wanting to play
better venues.

Post by Jim D
If these people EVER worked a decent stage or venue, where they
actually can and DO mic things, they'd lose their minds, wouldn't they ?

They'd never have anything decent until they first change their
Immature attitudes!

Post by Jim D
Well, of course. This reaction to lower stage levels and letting the
FOH do it's job is just what Band Girl seems unable to adjust too.

JimD
I'm sure she needs practice at that, but it's going to take the right
attitude to see that through.
Ouisie

It's up to her now. Either she learns and adapts to better gigs, or she
doesn't and keeps wanting to " crank it up ".


I'm doing a solo mid week, then her and I are supposed to have one more
day to work on some new stuff before the next band gig.

Life will go on, with or without her.


JimD

[Ouisie]

Post by Jim D
It's up to her now. Either she learns and adapts to better gigs, or she
doesn't and keeps wanting to " crank it up ".

In any case, it'll be her choice.

Post by Jim D
I'm doing a solo mid week, then her and I are supposed to have one more
day to work on some new stuff before the next band gig.
Life will go on, with or without her.

JimD

I wonder how, or even if she sees it like that.

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
It's up to her now. Either she learns and adapts to better gigs, or she
doesn't and keeps wanting to " crank it up ".

In any case, it'll be her choice.

Post by Jim D
I'm doing a solo mid week, then her and I are supposed to have one more
day to work on some new stuff before the next band gig.
Life will go on, with or without her.

JimD
I wonder how, or even if she sees it like that.
Ouisie

Haven't talked to her much this week. In the past I'd be feeling
guilty or something, like I'm avoiding her. Not now. I really have
had it with this. We have a few dozen more band gigs on current
contracts. Past those, I'm ready to let it go. Ease out, spend a year
painting my house or something, then go back into it as a solo only.

There's just too much effort involved in trying to get someone who self
describes their behavior as " pig headed " to go where they don't want
to. Even if they are possibly only doing the stubborn to get attention.

Too much work. Far easier to just play smaller gigs on my own.

JimD

[Ouisie]

Haven't talked to her much this week. In the past I'd be feeling guilty
or something, like I'm avoiding her. Not now. I really have had it with
this. We have a few dozen more band gigs on current contracts. Past
those, I'm ready to let it go. Ease out, spend a year painting my house
or something, then go back into it as a solo only.

That would be tragic. Why not just let her know that she's feeling somewhat
disoriented because she's spent so much time in the Sewer with the Low Life
Losers and now that she's out of it, it's not a familiar feeling right now,
yet...BUT IT WILL BE if she just sticks it out and takes the right attitude
because if she does, she'll learn to recognize that she'll never want to go
back to that Sewer...ever again!

There's just too much effort involved in trying to get someone who self
describes their behavior as " pig headed " to go where they don't want to.
Even if they are possibly only doing the stubborn to get attention.

Nothing wrong with being pig headed, but pigs are intelligent creatures, and
the choice to go deaf while making as many others as possible also go deaf
in the process is anything but intelligent, or even considerate, but rather
downright Stupid and Hostile!
And there are more worthy ways to get attention than that!!!

Too much work. Far easier to just play smaller gigs on my own.

JimD

Hopefully it'll never come to that but if it does, perhaps then she *might*
possibly get to see reality a bit more clearly.
Maybe she's been playing enough gigs now where the levels are more sensible
and safer so that should she ever get back with the Losers, of hearing and
gigs, that they'll now be too loud for her ;)

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
Haven't talked to her much this week. In the past I'd be feeling
guilty or something, like I'm avoiding her. Not now. I really have
had it with this. We have a few dozen more band gigs on current
contracts. Past those, I'm ready to let it go. Ease out, spend a year
painting my house or something, then go back into it as a solo only.

That would be tragic. Why not just let her know that she's feeling
somewhat disoriented because she's spent so much time in the Sewer with
the Low Life Losers and now that she's out of it, it's not a familiar
feeling right now, yet...BUT IT WILL BE if she just sticks it out and
takes the right attitude because if she does, she'll learn to recognize
that she'll never want to go back to that Sewer...ever again!

Post by Jim D
There's just too much effort involved in trying to get someone who self
describes their behavior as " pig headed " to go where they don't want
to. Even if they are possibly only doing the stubborn to get attention.

Nothing wrong with being pig headed, but pigs are intelligent
creatures, and the choice to go deaf while making as many others as
possible also go deaf in the process is anything but intelligent, or
even considerate, but rather downright Stupid and Hostile!
And there are more worthy ways to get attention than that!!!

Post by Jim D
Too much work. Far easier to just play smaller gigs on my own.

JimD
Hopefully it'll never come to that but if it does, perhaps then she
*might* possibly get to see reality a bit more clearly.
Maybe she's been playing enough gigs now where the levels are more
sensible and safer so that should she ever get back with the Losers, of
hearing and gigs, that they'll now be too loud for her ;)
Ouisie

I had a decent talk with her today. I was driving to a solo gig, she
home was doing whatever. She started telling me about some young
relative of hers who is about to ruin her life ( move in with some
loser ). Told me it is tragic, that she wanted to warn the young girl
off, but realized it was a waste of time.

I said I feel her pain, that anguish of knowing something, trying to
get others to take advantage of my hard earned wisdom, yet watching
them ignore me. She knew EXACTLY what I was talking about, said so.
Then it came out. She told me she simply doesn't believe we are too
loud. Said that she doesn't believe the management when they say there
are volume complaints. She just doesn't believe anyone is complaining.
Because in her opinion ..... we're not too loud.

So that's it. Nothing will change her mind. She, she ...... she
.....SHE ..... wants loud and the audience be damned.


I replied that I see now it was a mistake to say " we're too loud ".
That is opinion. In this case, it's my opinion. Saying we're " too
loud " is a judgment thing. Everyone would have their own idea of what
" right " is. What would have been better would to have said the
customer wants the music lower. Move it from personal opinion to
simply the job requirements.

If she wants to work for someone, then she'll need to meet their
expectations. Money for service rendered.

Don't like that ? Fine. She can stay home and feel morally superior.

I'll move on and be out there playing, and being paid for the same.


JimD

[Ouisie]

I had a decent talk with her today. I was driving to a solo gig, she home
was doing whatever. She started telling me about some young relative of
hers who is about to ruin her life ( move in with some loser ). Told me it
is tragic, that she wanted to warn the young girl off, but realized it was
a waste of time.

All one can do is make the attempt.

I said I feel her pain, that anguish of knowing something, trying to get
others to take advantage of my hard earned wisdom, yet watching them
ignore me. She knew EXACTLY what I was talking about, said so. Then it
came out. She told me she simply doesn't believe we are too loud. Said
that she doesn't believe the management when they say there are volume
complaints. She just doesn't believe anyone is complaining. Because in
her opinion ..... we're not too loud.

But How can she PROVE the validity of what she's saying???

So that's it. Nothing will change her mind. She, she ...... she .....SHE
..... wants loud and the audience be damned.

*She* - should learn how to use an SPL meter!

I replied that I see now it was a mistake to say " we're too loud ". That
is opinion. In this case, it's my opinion. Saying we're " too loud " is
a judgment thing. Everyone would have their own idea of what " right "
is.

But an SPL meter's measurements are OBJECTIVE and can be used to form a
BASIS for correlating the psychology of sensation, i.e. Perception, to
Reality!
That was one of the things I did for 11 years in the electroacoustics
industry - we used plenty of subjective evaluation judgments...even had a
listening room specifically for that, but accurate, objective, scientific
measurements nonetheless still formed the basis for generating the hard
parametric values for what we did.

What would have been better would to have said the customer wants the
music lower. Move it from personal opinion to simply the job
requirements.

That would be the best way to put it, because it literally uses the 'Burger
King' approach for the customer - to tell them; HAVE IT *YOUR* WAY!!!

If she wants to work for someone, then she'll need to meet their
expectations. Money for service rendered.

It would be much better to have things like that but most unfortunately -
Tragically, our Public so-called *servants* in so-called 'government'
certainly for the most part don't abide by that principle...yet they're
still *allowed* to keep their jobs...i.e. they get paid for their
DISservice!!!
Not a very good Example for giving the *customers* what they want - what
they're paying for!

Don't like that ? Fine. She can stay home and feel morally superior.

Maybe a 'vacation' is what she needs to think things over while feeling the
results.

I'll move on and be out there playing, and being paid for the same.

JimD

I hope she wakes up before that happens.

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
I had a decent talk with her today. I was driving to a solo gig, she
home was doing whatever. She started telling me about some young
relative of hers who is about to ruin her life ( move in with some
loser ). Told me it is tragic, that she wanted to warn the young girl
off, but realized it was a waste of time.

All one can do is make the attempt.

Post by Jim D
I said I feel her pain, that anguish of knowing something, trying to
get others to take advantage of my hard earned wisdom, yet watching
them ignore me. She knew EXACTLY what I was talking about, said so.
Then it came out. She told me she simply doesn't believe we are too
loud. Said that she doesn't believe the management when they say there
are volume complaints. She just doesn't believe anyone is complaining.
Because in her opinion ..... we're not too loud.

But How can she PROVE the validity of what she's saying???

Post by Jim D
So that's it. Nothing will change her mind. She, she ...... she
.....SHE ..... wants loud and the audience be damned.

*She* - should learn how to use an SPL meter!

Post by Jim D
I replied that I see now it was a mistake to say " we're too loud ".
That is opinion. In this case, it's my opinion. Saying we're " too
loud " is a judgment thing. Everyone would have their own idea of what
" right " is.

But an SPL meter's measurements are OBJECTIVE and can be used to form a
BASIS for correlating the psychology of sensation, i.e. Perception, to
Reality!
That was one of the things I did for 11 years in the electroacoustics
industry - we used plenty of subjective evaluation judgments...even had
a listening room specifically for that, but accurate, objective,
scientific measurements nonetheless still formed the basis for
generating the hard parametric values for what we did.

Post by Jim D
What would have been better would to have said the customer wants the
music lower. Move it from personal opinion to simply the job
requirements.

That would be the best way to put it, because it literally uses the
'Burger King' approach for the customer - to tell them; HAVE IT *YOUR*
WAY!!!

Post by Jim D
If she wants to work for someone, then she'll need to meet their
expectations. Money for service rendered.

It would be much better to have things like that but most unfortunately
- Tragically, our Public so-called *servants* in so-called 'government'
certainly for the most part don't abide by that principle...yet they're
still *allowed* to keep their jobs...i.e. they get paid for their
DISservice!!!
Not a very good Example for giving the *customers* what they want -
what they're paying for!

Post by Jim D
Don't like that ? Fine. She can stay home and feel morally superior.

Maybe a 'vacation' is what she needs to think things over while feeling
the results.

Post by Jim D
I'll move on and be out there playing, and being paid for the same.

JimD
I hope she wakes up before that happens.
Ouisie

Huh, what a coincidence, her and I had lunch at a Burger King yesterday :-)

more in a bit, she just called.

JimD

[Ouisie]

Post by Jim D
Huh, what a coincidence, her and I had lunch at a Burger King yesterday :-)
more in a bit, she just called.

JimD

I hope it's some good news for a change.

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
Huh, what a coincidence, her and I had lunch at a Burger King yesterday :-)
more in a bit, she just called.

JimD
I hope it's some good news for a change.
Ouisie

She was better at last nights gig. A little testy during setup, but
then ok during the job. I pretty much ignored any attitute things she
had. Just focused on the job at hand. Afterwards she was ok.

What I have is a woman who is used to " being the boss ", in her
business and personal life. She's finding it hard to let go of that.
Which she has to some, since simply stated, I know a lot more about the
music business than she does.

Oh, and we were asked to do the square dance gigs again next year.
Rehired. Yipee. We have a few months of summer to play some other
things and do whatever, then we'll be back at those most of next year.


JimD

[Ouisie]

She was better at last nights gig. A little testy during setup, but then
ok during the job. I pretty much ignored any attitute things she had. Just
focused on the job at hand. Afterwards she was ok.

Hopefully she's coming along - detoxifying as it were ;)

What I have is a woman who is used to " being the boss ", in her business
and personal life.

I'm not sure that would apply to her old bands' over-loudness, because being
too loud was probably someone else's idea rather than hers and she's only
used to having learned to go along with it - just as hopefully, she's
learning to unlearn that and adapt to lower sound levels and higher quality
gig levels.

She's finding it hard to let go of that.

That's to be expected. But so long as she ultimately does let go of it in
favor of something better.

Which she has to some, since simply stated, I know a lot more about the
music business than she does.

What's really to know? Noisy, deafening dangerous sound levels at crap gigs,
or safer more pleasant levels at better gigs.

Oh, and we were asked to do the square dance gigs again next year.
Rehired. Yipee.

What kind of sound levels do those have?

We have a few months of summer to play some other things and do whatever,
then we'll be back at those most of next year.

JimD

I think she's capable of adjusting over time so time is quite probably the
most critical factor.

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
She was better at last nights gig. A little testy during setup, but
then ok during the job. I pretty much ignored any attitute things she
had. Just focused on the job at hand. Afterwards she was ok.

Hopefully she's coming along - detoxifying as it were ;)

Post by Jim D
What I have is a woman who is used to " being the boss ", in her
business and personal life.

I'm not sure that would apply to her old bands' over-loudness, because
being too loud was probably someone else's idea rather than hers and
she's only used to having learned to go along with it - just as
hopefully, she's learning to unlearn that and adapt to lower sound
levels and higher quality gig levels.

Post by Jim D
She's finding it hard to let go of that.

That's to be expected. But so long as she ultimately does let go of it
in favor of something better.

Post by Jim D
Which she has to some, since simply stated, I know a lot more about the
music business than she does.

What's really to know? Noisy, deafening dangerous sound levels at crap
gigs, or safer more pleasant levels at better gigs.

Post by Jim D
Oh, and we were asked to do the square dance gigs again next year.
Rehired. Yipee.

What kind of sound levels do those have?

Post by Jim D
We have a few months of summer to play some other things and do
whatever, then we'll be back at those most of next year.

JimD
I think she's capable of adjusting over time so time is quite probably
the most critical factor.
Ouisie

My reference to her use to being the boss is in her real business ....
not the band.

Yeah, things may come along. It's been a struggle, as she had a lot of
bad habits to overcome. And a lot of nar do well friends handing her
bad advice.

JimD

[Ouisie]

My reference to her use to being the boss is in her real business .... not
the band.

"Real" as in a NON Labor of Love ;)

Yeah, things may come along. It's been a struggle, as she had a lot of bad
habits to overcome. And a lot of nar do well friends handing her bad
advice.

JimD

Maybe she'll come to realize that better is a good thing and one day come to
be sickened at the very thought of how things used to be in the Low Life -
hopefully.

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
My reference to her use to being the boss is in her real business ....
not the band.

"Real" as in a NON Labor of Love ;)

Post by Jim D
Yeah, things may come along. It's been a struggle, as she had a lot of
bad habits to overcome. And a lot of nar do well friends handing her
bad advice.

JimD
Maybe she'll come to realize that better is a good thing and one day
come to be sickened at the very thought of how things used to be in the
Low Life - hopefully.
Ouisie

She is very slowly coming around. Very slowly.

JimD

[Ouisie]

Post by Jim D
She is very slowly coming around. Very slowly.

JimD

I had a feeling she might. At some point, hopefully, she'll discover what a
waste it was before ;)

Ouisie