a most bizarre conversation

[Jim D]

I just need to document this, so that tomorrow I can read this and
realize I'm not now dreaming.


Did a nice band gig this evening. Some issues with the pa, lack of a
proper soundcheck, time limits. So band girl goes out, at my request,
on one of out first song, me singing, to get a bead on the main pa
levels. Comes back, says the drums aren't loud enough, and the overall
music is too low, and the vocals are loud.

Wants me to correct that. I reply that her monitor, the only speakr
onstage is " swamping the stage " and so I can't hear the mains, but
I'll adjust as she suggests.

All this then dominoed out of control ending up with her turning her
monitor off, not saying anything, only telling me after the gig. What
was wrong initially was the level settings on the FOH power amp. Those
were at 2, because I had been working on some things at home earlier in
the week. Caught it in the 2nd song or so, and put them back to their
normal positions. But she never readjusted her monitor. Instead she
ask me to turn her mic up, because it wasn't loud enough out front. So,
I did. She left her monitor off the entire gig. She has the controls
on it, remember.

Told me later that she didn't want to upset me by having it so loud
that it " swamped the stage ". I replied that I said that because at
the time the mains were barely on .... not that her monitor would be
too loud once the whole pa was up and running.

Oh, and we recorded the gig. That'll be ruined by the way too hot mic levels.

It's like her and I don't even speak the same language on this stuff.


more thoughts later if I have any ........


JimD

[Jim D]

Post by Jim D
I just need to document this, so that tomorrow I can read this and
realize I'm not now dreaming.
Did a nice band gig this evening. Some issues with the pa, lack of a
proper soundcheck, time limits. So band girl goes out, at my request,
on one of out first song, me singing, to get a bead on the main pa
levels. Comes back, says the drums aren't loud enough, and the overall
music is too low, and the vocals are loud.
Wants me to correct that. I reply that her monitor, the only speakr
onstage is " swamping the stage " and so I can't hear the mains, but
I'll adjust as she suggests.
All this then dominoed out of control ending up with her turning her
monitor off, not saying anything, only telling me after the gig. What
was wrong initially was the level settings on the FOH power amp. Those
were at 2, because I had been working on some things at home earlier in
the week. Caught it in the 2nd song or so, and put them back to their
normal positions. But she never readjusted her monitor. Instead she
ask me to turn her mic up, because it wasn't loud enough out front. So,
I did. She left her monitor off the entire gig. She has the controls
on it, remember.
Told me later that she didn't want to upset me by having it so loud
that it " swamped the stage ". I replied that I said that because at
the time the mains were barely on .... not that her monitor would be
too loud once the whole pa was up and running.
Oh, and we recorded the gig. That'll be ruined by the way too hot mic levels.
It's like her and I don't even speak the same language on this stuff.
more thoughts later if I have any ........
JimD

did a duo this evening, day after I wrote the above stuff. It went
well, except ... of course for a few comments from her keeping the
unending volume problem alive.

I told her yesterday that this comes down to her simply not trusting me
to run the pa. It's just that simple. Who she thinks WILL do it, I'm
not sure. But for sure as long as it's me, she'll be finding after the
fact fault. Something she can't really put into words, but it was wrong
just the same.

For a while I thought she was just so accoustomed to crappy bar band
stage sound, and so sounding like a decent band was just foreign to
her. But more and more it looks like she'll never come around. She
likes things loud and jumbled. It seems perhaps it's true, you really
can't teach an old dog new tricks.

No matter how many people, even some of her old band mates, tell her
how good we sound, ... ti doesn't matter. There is still something
wrong with the mix. Something she can't define, but that she is sure is
there.

It's hopeless.

So what to do ?

Tonight she suggested I make up checklists of all the things that need
done, that might go wrong, so she can make me go over them at each
setup. I said, I already know how to hook the pa up. The problem comes
in when I don't have time to recheck EVERYONE else's work. I don't set
up her monitor. Or make sure she has her iphone actually on the right
wifi channel to link to the pa. I don't have time to look as see if
her monitor is plugged into ac. If I have to do all that, they might
as well just go to the lounge and leave me to set up everything on the
stage. I could, but it'll take a while. And then, I'd need to one by
one check that all the mics work, that no cables are broke, that all
the speakers actually got connected up, and again, aren't blown. And
when all that's done, she'll still find some fault with the mix.

As is it, I have to AB mine and her mics to prove to her that mine
isn't somehow louder than hers. I had to to that this evening.

Ridiculous ?

Absolutely.



JimD

[Ouisie]

Seems to me she has a choice - either let you handle the levels, or she can
do it.

There's nothing like an Imaginary 'problem' to complain about!

Other bands are losing gigs because they're too Stupid to get the levels
right, and you're getting gigs - that's got to say at least *something*!

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie
Seems to me she has a choice - either let you handle the levels, or she
can do it.
There's nothing like an Imaginary 'problem' to complain about!
Other bands are losing gigs because they're too Stupid to get the
levels right, and you're getting gigs - that's got to say at least
*something*!
Ouisie

Her and I had a day long session yesterday. Redid the intros on
several of the square dance songs and added on " normal " song that was
a request of her. Also went out for lunch during all that. She
wanted to discuss how the pa worked then. Questioning my using
compression on the mics. I told her I wasn't using anything like that
on hers. She threw a fit back when we first got the pa, sreiously over
reacted to comp on her mic, so I turned it off ..... On Her Mic. She
ask yesterday if it was even possible to use compression on a mic live
? I said, sure it is. Said I've had some on MY mic since the new
mixer ... so for most of a year. That surprised her. Remember she has
an obcession that my mic is louder that her's, so we're always having
to A/B them at gigs ?

Yep, I said " you wanted all that shut down ... on ... your .... mic.
I never turned any of it off on MINE. "

So now she's open to letting me turn that stuff back on on her mic.

----


been reading up on using comp on mic live ... big range of opinions.
Some people hate it, yet I keep reading what particular comp this or
that big name uses ........


-----
JimD

[Ouisie]

Her and I had a day long session yesterday. Redid the intros on several
of the square dance songs and added on " normal " song that was a request
of her. Also went out for lunch during all that. She wanted to discuss
how the pa worked then. Questioning my using compression on the mics. I
told her I wasn't using anything like that on hers. She threw a fit back
when we first got the pa, sreiously over reacted to comp on her mic, so I
turned it off ..... On Her Mic. She ask yesterday if it was even possible
to use compression on a mic live ? I said, sure it is. Said I've had
some on MY mic since the new mixer ... so for most of a year. That
surprised her. Remember she has an obcession that my mic is louder that
her's, so we're always having to A/B them at gigs ?

There's nothing like someone getting upset when they have no idea what's
going on in the first place.

Yep, I said " you wanted all that shut down ... on ... your .... mic. I
never turned any of it off on MINE. "
So now she's open to letting me turn that stuff back on on her mic.

Gee, I wonder why ;)
----

been reading up on using comp on mic live ... big range of opinions. Some
people hate it, yet I keep reading what particular comp this or that big
name uses ........

-----
JimD

Compression is a tool, and like any tool, needs to be used Properly for best
results.

I'd Love to have a stand alone dedicated compressor!

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
Her and I had a day long session yesterday. Redid the intros on
several of the square dance songs and added on " normal " song that was
a request of her. Also went out for lunch during all that. She
wanted to discuss how the pa worked then. Questioning my using
compression on the mics. I told her I wasn't using anything like that
on hers. She threw a fit back when we first got the pa, sreiously over
reacted to comp on her mic, so I turned it off ..... On Her Mic. She
ask yesterday if it was even possible to use compression on a mic live
? I said, sure it is. Said I've had some on MY mic since the new
mixer ... so for most of a year. That surprised her. Remember she has
an obcession that my mic is louder that her's, so we're always having
to A/B them at gigs ?

There's nothing like someone getting upset when they have no idea
what's going on in the first place.

Post by Jim D
Yep, I said " you wanted all that shut down ... on ... your .... mic.
I never turned any of it off on MINE. "
So now she's open to letting me turn that stuff back on on her mic.

Gee, I wonder why ;)
----

Post by Jim D
been reading up on using comp on mic live ... big range of opinions.
Some people hate it, yet I keep reading what particular comp this or
that big name uses ........

-----
JimD
Compression is a tool, and like any tool, needs to be used Properly for
best results.
I'd Love to have a stand alone dedicated compressor!
Ouisie

Fear of change. Fear of the unknown. Stage fright .... ? Heck, I
don't know. The underlying reasons for her ever changing " problems "
with the sound are a mystery.

At this point I'm saying it's insecurity mixed with not wanting to let
anyone else have control. Distrust.


I found a nice article on the web written by some high end sound guy /
recording engineer that talked about this stuff. He basically hit
every point I'm made, every problem we have. From amature bands that
want to fry the pa to singers that want to tell you how to eq the FOH.
I sent band girl a link. Risky, but still, she needs to learn.

I can't post that link now from this computer, but I will email it to
you later. Read it or toss it ... your choice :-)

JimD

[Ouisie]

Post by Jim D
Fear of change. Fear of the unknown. Stage fright .... ? Heck, I
don't know. The underlying reasons for her ever changing " problems "
with the sound are a mystery.

May changing, or deteriorating hearing could be the problem.

Post by Jim D
At this point I'm saying it's insecurity mixed with not wanting to let
anyone else have control. Distrust.

From some bad personal experiences, I've developed an attitude of not
wanting someone else controlling whether I get heard or not, because I want
to be heard, at least be me even if by no one else!!!

Post by Jim D
I found a nice article on the web written by some high end sound guy /
recording engineer that talked about this stuff. He basically hit every
point I'm made, every problem we have. From amature bands that want to
fry the pa to singers that want to tell you how to eq the FOH. I sent
band girl a link. Risky, but still, she needs to learn.
I can't post that link now from this computer, but I will email it to you
later. Read it or toss it ... your choice :-)

JimD

That's a good article. No big revelation for me though, because I've known
that for a long time - it's got to sound decent FIRST, and that means the
*entire* band, not some egomaniacal prima donna's instrument and/or vocals
ONLY!!!

When I play, I want to hear every sound the *entire band* makes - clearly
and distinctly, just as if I was listening to a studio recording, so that I
can *truly* get into and thus *be* in the Music, and be tripping on the Love
Vibe!

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
Fear of change. Fear of the unknown. Stage fright .... ? Heck, I
don't know. The underlying reasons for her ever changing " problems "
with the sound are a mystery.

May changing, or deteriorating hearing could be the problem.

Post by Jim D
At this point I'm saying it's insecurity mixed with not wanting to let
anyone else have control. Distrust.

From some bad personal experiences, I've developed an attitude of not
wanting someone else controlling whether I get heard or not, because I
want to be heard, at least be me even if by no one else!!!

Post by Jim D
I found a nice article on the web written by some high end sound guy /
recording engineer that talked about this stuff. He basically hit
every point I'm made, every problem we have. From amature bands that
want to fry the pa to singers that want to tell you how to eq the FOH.
I sent band girl a link. Risky, but still, she needs to learn.
I can't post that link now from this computer, but I will email it to
you later. Read it or toss it ... your choice :-)

JimD
That's a good article. No big revelation for me though, because I've
known that for a long time - it's got to sound decent FIRST, and that
means the *entire* band, not some egomaniacal prima donna's instrument
and/or vocals ONLY!!!
When I play, I want to hear every sound the *entire band* makes -
clearly and distinctly, just as if I was listening to a studio
recording, so that I can *truly* get into and thus *be* in the Music,
and be tripping on the Love Vibe!
Ouisie

Wanting to hear everthing like it's a record is a BIG part of her
problem. That's generally not possible in a live situation. Maybe you
can think of a way that it is, but I can't.

Her and I had a long talk after yersterday's duo job. Don't know if we
solved anything, but the pressure is slightly less now, so maybe our
relationship won't blow apart.

Distrust, as an inability to let anyone else do their job without her
overseeing and approval, is the issue. It's very difficult to work
with others when you have that mindset. Most people get tired of having
to explain why they did this or that some particular way ... to someone
who doesn't understand the job, or the explination.

Cousin brought up pro ball team owners as an example of something like
that. An owner that hires a head coach then meddles in all that coaches
decisions. Eventually the coach will quit. Or, after the team loses
enough games, the owner might back away and let the pro's make the
decisions. Either way, having some unqualified person in charge of
something they don't understand usually doesn't work out well.

Saw a comment once that the reason most bands are too loud is because
90% of musicians don't know one thing about acoustics.

That pretty much covers our little problem. That and listening to
people from her circle of friends that know even less that that. As in
it's often worse to " know " something that's wrong, than to know
nothing at all. And the idea that " turn it up " is a good way to run
the pa is just wrong.

JimD

[Ouisie]

Wanting to hear everthing like it's a record is a BIG part of her problem.
That's generally not possible in a live situation. Maybe you can think of
a way that it is, but I can't.

It can be done through the *right* monitor system. Personally, I like small
mic stand monitors that I can use in or close to near field proximity. That
way, I hear myself without becoming de facto part of the FOH system...and
don't have to suffer the discomfort of having things stuck into my ears,
even though I *wish* I could stand them.

Her and I had a long talk after yersterday's duo job. Don't know if we
solved anything, but the pressure is slightly less now, so maybe our
relationship won't blow apart.

I can't say I've ever experienced anything like that situation, but if I
did, I'd approach its remedy on an experimental basis. That way, I can at
least ask for some cooperation, hopefully with some degree of impunity, and
perhaps even some success, with *trying* the experiment(s).

But once again, as with anything else that's seriously worthwhile, Maturity
in general and open mindedness in particular, is Required.

Distrust, as an inability to let anyone else do their job without her
overseeing and approval, is the issue.

That's where the experimental approach might help - doing a *test* -
*trying* something in order to evaluate the results.
That way the only commitment is simply to *see* how things will work out.

It's very difficult to work with others when you have that mindset.

Unless it can be *defused*, by a different approach.

Most people get tired of having to explain why they did this or that some
particular way ... to someone
who doesn't understand the job, or the explination.

Then try focusing on the *results* instead...since those are a LOT harder to
argue with.

Cousin brought up pro ball team owners as an example of something like
that. An owner that hires a head coach then meddles in all that coaches
decisions. Eventually the coach will quit. Or, after the team loses enough
games, the owner might back away and let the pro's make the decisions.
Either way, having some unqualified person in charge of something they
don't understand usually doesn't work out well.

And the common denominator is success, or the lack thereof, which is usually
a very powerful motive, particularly when properly focused on.

Saw a comment once that the reason most bands are too loud is because 90%
of musicians don't know one thing about acoustics.

More like 90% of them have Ruined their hearing *because* they know nothing
about acoustics, that and of course, because they're Total IDIOTS, who
STUPIDLY *chose* to disregard the *pain* signals that too-high SPLs were
giving them back when they actually could still hear.

That pretty much covers our little problem. That and listening to people
from her circle of friends that know even less that that. As in it's often
worse to " know " something that's wrong, than to know nothing at all. And
the idea that " turn it up " is a good way to run the pa is just wrong.

JimD

If they're *real* friends, they'll want their friends to get gigs rather
than Lose them - along with their hearing!

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
Wanting to hear everthing like it's a record is a BIG part of her
problem. That's generally not possible in a live situation. Maybe you
can think of a way that it is, but I can't.

It can be done through the *right* monitor system. Personally, I like
small mic stand monitors that I can use in or close to near field
proximity. That way, I hear myself without becoming de facto part of
the FOH system...and don't have to suffer the discomfort of having
things stuck into my ears, even though I *wish* I could stand them.

She told me yesterday she's never worked in a band that used monitors
before the grage band I " found " her in. I ask, how could you hear
yourself then ? Lot's of rambling nonsense followed. I believe the
answer is that she sang REALLY LOUD. And she can't seem to back off
that style.

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
Her and I had a long talk after yersterday's duo job. Don't know if we
solved anything, but the pressure is slightly less now, so maybe our
relationship won't blow apart.

I can't say I've ever experienced anything like that situation, but if
I did, I'd approach its remedy on an experimental basis. That way, I
can at least ask for some cooperation, hopefully with some degree of
impunity, and perhaps even some success, with *trying* the
experiment(s).
But once again, as with anything else that's seriously worthwhile,
Maturity in general and open mindedness in particular, is Required.

In our case, she'll either learn to sing at less than full throated
levels, or she'll never have enough stage level.

Easy to fit. If she want's massive stage level, simple to the point of
absurdity, use the in ears, turn them up to whatever she wants. She
won't do that. No not now, no not ever.

Next solution, less satisfactory, use a floor wedge. Ah, but then how
to make one single 15 and a horn sound as loud as a full up rock band ?
Not easy, as she's learning. They will blow up first.

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
Distrust, as an inability to let anyone else do their job without her
overseeing and approval, is the issue.

That's where the experimental approach might help - doing a *test* -
*trying* something in order to evaluate the results.
That way the only commitment is simply to *see* how things will work out.
It's very difficult to work with others when you have that mindset.
Unless it can be *defused*, by a different approach.
Most people get tired of having to explain why they did this or that
some particular way ... to someone
who doesn't understand the job, or the explination.

or actively doesn't WANT to understand.

Post by Ouisie
Then try focusing on the *results* instead...since those are a LOT
harder to argue with.

Results ? What would that be ? The only thing she wants is for us to
crank the FOH until we get fired. I say that because, we spent a year
blowing cabs up and that wasn't loud enough. It's only now that we've
lost some regular gigs and are in the process of losing more that's
she's really digging her heels in on correcting this.

Is she worth the aggrivation ?

No.

Absolutely not.

But getting out of several year long contracts isn't just snap your
finger easy. So I'm trying to help her before the inevitable blow up
happens.

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
Cousin brought up pro ball team owners as an example of something like
that. An owner that hires a head coach then meddles in all that coaches
decisions. Eventually the coach will quit. Or, after the team loses
enough games, the owner might back away and let the pro's make the
decisions. Either way, having some unqualified person in charge of
something they don't understand usually doesn't work out well.

And the common denominator is success, or the lack thereof, which is
usually a very powerful motive, particularly when properly focused on.

Post by Jim D
Saw a comment once that the reason most bands are too loud is because
90% of musicians don't know one thing about acoustics.

More like 90% of them have Ruined their hearing *because* they know
nothing about acoustics, that and of course, because they're Total
IDIOTS, who STUPIDLY *chose* to disregard the *pain* signals that
too-high SPLs were giving them back when they actually could still hear.

I hit the threshold of pain with this band two summers back at an
outdoor gig. Seriously thought I'd burst an eardrum. Really.

Since then, it's been a never ending struggle to try and back the
levels down. I'll lose in the end. Well, not totally. I'll lose the
battle bt win the war. The band will be gone, but I'll still have some
of hearing left.

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
That pretty much covers our little problem. That and listening to
people from her circle of friends that know even less that that. As in
it's often worse to " know " something that's wrong, than to know
nothing at all. And the idea that " turn it up " is a good way to run
the pa is just wrong.

JimD
If they're *real* friends, they'll want their friends to get gigs
rather than Lose them - along with their hearing!
Ouisie

They want her to fail. As obvious as anything in the world could ever be.

JimD

[Ouisie]

Post by Jim D
She told me yesterday she's never worked in a band that used monitors
before the grage band I " found " her in. I ask, how could you hear
yourself then ? Lot's of rambling nonsense followed. I believe the
answer is that she sang REALLY LOUD. And she can't seem to back off that
style.

Vocal folds have a lot in common with ears - they can only take so much
abuse before they start failing.
Overly Loud singing can damage vocal folds as surely as Overly Loud sound
levels can damage hearing.

Post by Jim D
In our case, she'll either learn to sing at less than full throated
levels, or she'll never have enough stage level.

Working the mic is the best way.

Post by Jim D
Easy to fit. If she want's massive stage level, simple to the point of
absurdity, use the in ears, turn them up to whatever she wants. She won't
do that. No not now, no not ever.

If I could tolerate those things, I'd have the levels exactly where it
sounded best to me.

Post by Jim D
Next solution, less satisfactory, use a floor wedge. Ah, but then how to
make one single 15 and a horn sound as loud as a full up rock band ? Not
easy, as she's learning. They will blow up first.

She should work the wedge, and the mic, remaining in optimum proximity to
both.

Post by Jim D
or actively doesn't WANT to understand.

There are far too many who don't want to understand or even learn anything -
they *fear* that it might make them Responsible, and they're too Lazy and
Cowardly for that!

Post by Jim D
Results ? What would that be ?

Gigs of course, and more of them, and better paying, and better venues, and
better audiences, to name a few.

Post by Jim D
The only thing she wants is for us to crank the FOH until we get fired.

Does she somehow use the FOH system for a monitor system? If not, why should
she care about anything other than the monitor system?

Post by Jim D
I say that because, we spent a year blowing cabs up and that wasn't loud
enough.

That gets ridiculously expensive because it's expensively ridiculous!

Post by Jim D
It's only now that we've lost some regular gigs and are in the process of
losing more that's she's really digging her heels in on correcting this.

So she really does want gigs after all...even to the point of correcting a
problem that never should have been there in the first place?

Post by Jim D
Is she worth the aggrivation ?
No.
Absolutely not.

Then it's straighten-up-and-fly-right time ;)

Post by Jim D
But getting out of several year long contracts isn't just snap your finger
easy. So I'm trying to help her before the inevitable blow up happens.

But getting out isn't quite the same as being thrown out, unless the
contract actually has some requirements about sound levels.

Post by Jim D
I hit the threshold of pain with this band two summers back at an outdoor
gig. Seriously thought I'd burst an eardrum. Really.

I've felt it a few times and that's a few times too many, so I always keep
earplugs with me. Like anything stuck into my ears, I can't stand them
either but when the alternative is deafness, that's not a choice for me so
in they go, and when the gig is over, I go, never to return.

Post by Jim D
Since then, it's been a never ending struggle to try and back the levels
down. I'll lose in the end. Well, not totally. I'll lose the battle bt
win the war. The band will be gone, but I'll still have some of hearing
left.

So the management isn't complaining, the audience isn't complaining, only
she is complaining and doesn't mind folding up the band, even it's doing
better and better all the time, and return to the SEWER?
Could it possibly be a bluff?

Post by Jim D
They want her to fail. As obvious as anything in the world could ever be.

JimD

Of course, they blew it so they want her to do the same thing. As the old
saying goes ;"With 'friends' like that......etc." ;)

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
She told me yesterday she's never worked in a band that used monitors
before the grage band I " found " her in. I ask, how could you hear
yourself then ? Lot's of rambling nonsense followed. I believe the
answer is that she sang REALLY LOUD. And she can't seem to back off
that style.

Vocal folds have a lot in common with ears - they can only take so much
abuse before they start failing.
Overly Loud singing can damage vocal folds as surely as Overly Loud
sound levels can damage hearing.

Her and I had a session yesterday. Spent some time LOOKING at the db
levels we work. I've just layed down the reality with her. I'm not
working at ****** stage levels ******** over about 90 db. Just ain't
happening. I'm not going to wear hear plugs so we can just play
louder ON STAGE.

The FOH and the stage level are two separate things. So stop whinning
about the FOH levels. No more asking " a friend " if we're loud enough.
I'm done with that.

It occurs to me, she simply can't wrap her mind around the the stage
level and the FOH level being different.

Because she doesn't want to.

She did make reference at one point that her own voice was drowning out
the music. Huh. Well, how about you back off a little on the vocal
level ? That's the stickler. She's worked with loud bar bands so
long, so much, that she's stuck in a singing style of VERY LOUD.
There's not easing off, at least so far. Oh she, can, I've seen her do
it, but she doesn't want to.

Again, that phrase, because she doesn't want to.

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
In our case, she'll either learn to sing at less than full throated
levels, or she'll never have enough stage level.

Working the mic is the best way.

Yep.

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
Easy to fit. If she want's massive stage level, simple to the point of
absurdity, use the in ears, turn them up to whatever she wants. She
won't do that. No not now, no not ever.

If I could tolerate those things, I'd have the levels exactly where it
sounded best to me.

Or, simply get the stage level down to where you don't need them.
There's no reason musicians can't play at tolerable stage levels. Turn
the stuff down and mic things for the FOH sound. They just don't want
to.

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
Next solution, less satisfactory, use a floor wedge. Ah, but then how
to make one single 15 and a horn sound as loud as a full up rock band ?
Not easy, as she's learning. They will blow up first.

She should work the wedge, and the mic, remaining in optimum proximity to both.

We talked about that. I'm ok with her using a wedge IF she keeps it
pointed at her head. No angling it off to one side, cranking it up,
and then complaing she can't hear it. Point it directly at HER head,
then adjust it to whatever level she wants.

Don't point it off towards the back wall, or the drums, or ME .... then
insist on cranking it up because " I can't hear it ".

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
or actively doesn't WANT to understand.

There are far too many who don't want to understand or even learn
anything - they *fear* that it might make them Responsible, and they're
too Lazy and Cowardly for that!

Post by Jim D
Results ? What would that be ?

Gigs of course, and more of them, and better paying, and better venues,
and better audiences, to name a few.

Yes, imagine the rewards of actually supplying what the customer wants.

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
The only thing she wants is for us to crank the FOH until we get fired.

Does she somehow use the FOH system for a monitor system? If not, why
should she care about anything other than the monitor system?

She cares because her bar and ex muso friends tell her we're not loud
enough for their low brow tastes. Obviously she shares their
preference for loud music.

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
I say that because, we spent a year blowing cabs up and that wasn't
loud enough.

That gets ridiculously expensive because it's expensively ridiculous!

Got a newly fried JBL apart on my bench right now thanks to " I can't
hear it " thinking. I told her I'd try and fix it, or she can throw it
away. Haven't looked at it in about two weeks, just because of other
more pressing issues. Eventually I guess we'll get it going again. Not
a biggie, she has another of these she can toast on her path to
learning how monitors work.

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
It's only now that we've lost some regular gigs and are in the process
of losing more that's she's really digging her heels in on correcting
this.

So she really does want gigs after all...even to the point of
correcting a problem that never should have been there in the first
place?

She'll learn to back of the volume, or she won't. What's bizarre is I
have several musician friends who think just like her, loud or nothing.
Of course, none of them are currently in working bands. Lots of talk
about putting something together, bla bla. They might. Then they'll
play a handfull of gigs, be crazy loud as before, lose all the repeat
bookings, and be back where they are now, talking about putting a band
together.

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
Is she worth the aggrivation ?
No.
Absolutely not.

Then it's straighten-up-and-fly-right time ;)

She knows that.

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
But getting out of several year long contracts isn't just snap your
finger easy. So I'm trying to help her before the inevitable blow up
happens.

But getting out isn't quite the same as being thrown out, unless the
contract actually has some requirements about sound levels.

We can lose any of our jobs at any time. Go in, screw up bad enough,
and it's over, contracts or not.

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
I hit the threshold of pain with this band two summers back at an
outdoor gig. Seriously thought I'd burst an eardrum. Really.

I've felt it a few times and that's a few times too many, so I always
keep earplugs with me. Like anything stuck into my ears, I can't stand
them either but when the alternative is deafness, that's not a choice
for me so in they go, and when the gig is over, I go, never to return.

Post by Jim D
Since then, it's been a never ending struggle to try and back the
levels down. I'll lose in the end. Well, not totally. I'll lose the
battle bt win the war. The band will be gone, but I'll still have some
of hearing left.

So the management isn't complaining, the audience isn't complaining,
only she is complaining and doesn't mind folding up the band, even it's
doing better and better all the time, and return to the SEWER?
Could it possibly be a bluff?

Management is complaining. As are some of the audience.

Wanna see something amazing ? Tell a musician or a chick singer they
are too loud. Then, just stand back and watch the reaction.

That's what she's going thru now. It would be major entertainment if it
wasn't such a serious thing.

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
They want her to fail. As obvious as anything in the world could ever be.

JimD
Of course, they blew it so they want her to do the same thing. As the
old saying goes ;"With 'friends' like that......etc." ;)
Ouisie

Well ..... yesterday didn't go too bad. We don't play this weekend.
I have some solo gigs next week, then the band is back at it on the
weekend. We have two more gigs on this years deal at the SD. If we
get thru those without getting fired, then who knows. It's all up to
her maturity level. Can she work as an adult, or will her stubborn
child inside blow it up ?

JimD

[Ouisie]

Post by Jim D
Her and I had a session yesterday. Spent some time LOOKING at the db
levels we work. I've just layed down the reality with her. I'm not
working at ****** stage levels ******** over about 90 db. Just ain't
happening. I'm not going to wear hear plugs so we can just play louder
ON STAGE.

90 dB is plenty. But all SPL figures are best stated in terms of distance
from the source i.e. 90 dB at 1 meter at 1 Watt. But that's only for speaker
parameters - for the important hearing protecting purpose, all that's needed
is the SPL and the distance from the source.

Post by Jim D
The FOH and the stage level are two separate things.

Or at least they should be ;)

Post by Jim D
So stop whinning about the FOH levels. No more asking " a friend " if
we're loud enough. I'm done with that.

Unless she can actually hear the FOH system from the perspective of the
audience, what possible basis can she have for evaluating its level in the
first place?

Post by Jim D
It occurs to me, she simply can't wrap her mind around the the stage level
and the FOH level being different.
Because she doesn't want to.

That's it, but why?

Post by Jim D
She did make reference at one point that her own voice was drowning out
the music. Huh. Well, how about you back off a little on the vocal level
? That's the stickler. She's worked with loud bar bands so long, so
much, that she's stuck in a singing style of VERY LOUD. There's not easing
off, at least so far. Oh she, can, I've seen her do it, but she doesn't
want to.
Again, that phrase, because she doesn't want to.

Practicing the new technique is what's needed there.

Post by Jim D
Or, simply get the stage level down to where you don't need them.

THAT would be Ideal!!! I just HATE the notion of playing under some kind of
Handicap, where 'work-arounds' and other compensating and mitigating
techniques are used...particularly if they wouldn't even be necessary if
things were done RIGHT in the first place!!!

Post by Jim D
There's no reason musicians can't play at tolerable stage levels.

None at all. It just takes the right ATTITUDE!

Post by Jim D
Turn the stuff down and mic things for the FOH sound. They just don't
want to.

Whatever makes it sound BEST - THAT *should* be the attitude!

Post by Jim D
We talked about that. I'm ok with her using a wedge IF she keeps it
pointed at her head.

That's always been how I prefer to use monitors - point them right at *my*
ears, and keep them close enough to where only minimal power is needed for
them to be effective...which is why I like the small ones and really have no
use for the monsters with the 15" speakers and more.

Post by Jim D
No angling it off to one side, cranking it up, and then complaing she
can't hear it. Point it directly at HER head, then adjust it to whatever
level she wants.

Besides, that's effectively making it part of the FOH system - even in a
similar power range, which is Silly.

Post by Jim D
Don't point it off towards the back wall, or the drums, or ME .... then
insist on cranking it up because " I can't hear it ".

Monitors work best when they're Personal...the idea is NOT to share them!

Post by Jim D
Yes, imagine the rewards of actually supplying what the customer wants.

Any other way is counterproductive.

Post by Jim D
She cares because her bar and ex muso friends tell her we're not loud
enough for their low brow tastes. Obviously she shares their preference
for loud music.

Now all they have to do is learn to use an SPL meter. Then they can actually
Know the levels before deciding ;)

Post by Jim D
Got a newly fried JBL apart on my bench right now thanks to " I can't
hear it " thinking.

I wouldn't fry equipment for anyone - neither they nor their Stupid comments
are worth it!!!

Post by Jim D
I told her I'd try and fix it, or she can throw it away. Haven't looked
at it in about two weeks, just because of other more pressing issues.
Eventually I guess we'll get it going again. Not a biggie, she has another
of these she can toast on her path to learning how monitors work.

That's not learning, only ruining gear ;)
You'd have a better chance with 6th graders, because they'd at least be up
for learning ;)

Post by Jim D
She'll learn to back of the volume, or she won't.

It's easy enough, just turn counterclockwise rather than clockwise ;)

Post by Jim D
What's bizarre is I have several musician friends who think just like her,
loud or nothing.

At that's probably all that's left of there hearing - Nothing...from being
too loud for too long!
But why be so loud, and Stupid alone? So they try to get other FOOLS to
repeat history - nothing new under the sun.

Post by Jim D
Of course, none of them are currently in working bands.

Maybe they can't even hear what they play anymore.

Post by Jim D
Lots of talk about putting something together, bla bla. They might. Then
they'll play a handfull of gigs, be crazy loud as before, lose all the
repeat bookings, and be back where they are now, talking about putting a
band together.

Or they'll play so badly, because they can't hear, that every new gig will
be their last. I know of a band like that. No one but drunks, and maybe even
deaf ones at that, will tolerate them. It's truly Tragic, but then Stupidity
always is!

Post by Jim D
She knows that.

So then she therefore also knows that the proverbial ball is in her court
and that it's her move.

Post by Jim D
We can lose any of our jobs at any time. Go in, screw up bad enough, and
it's over, contracts or not.

I'd think so. I recall even hearing about a big name band that made such a
train wreck of a concert that they weren't even paid for it, and when they
tried to take their employer to court to try to collect, after the evidence
was presented, the court sided with the employer finding them not liable for
payment ;)

Post by Jim D
Management is complaining. As are some of the audience.

So they find it too loud too?

Post by Jim D
Wanna see something amazing ? Tell a musician or a chick singer they are
too loud. Then, just stand back and watch the reaction.

They probably wouldn't understand what that means ;)

Post by Jim D
That's what she's going thru now. It would be major entertainment if it
wasn't such a serious thing.

I've found that such situations are far too Disgusting to be funny.
Kind of reminds me of some of the accounts of the details regarding plane
crashes - if it weren't for the tragedy, it might even be funny, in a Silly,
Stupid way.

Post by Jim D
Well ..... yesterday didn't go too bad. We don't play this weekend. I
have some solo gigs next week, then the band is back at it on the weekend.
We have two more gigs on this years deal at the SD. If we get thru those
without getting fired, then who knows. It's all up to her maturity level.
Can she work as an adult, or will her stubborn child inside blow it up ?

JimD

Depends on what kind of child ;)
An episode, specifically "The Bellero shield" of one of my all time favorite
programs, "The Outer Limits", mentioned that courage, such as to boldly
explore and experiment, are reserved "for very small children and very
dedicated scientists". That's my attitude - both of those, and it results in
a certain level of maturity to preserve it without becoming overcome with
panic. If she were to adopt THAT kind of maturity, it would no doubt bear
some awesome results!

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
Her and I had a session yesterday. Spent some time LOOKING at the db
levels we work. I've just layed down the reality with her. I'm not
working at ****** stage levels ******** over about 90 db. Just ain't
happening. I'm not going to wear hear plugs so we can just play
louder ON STAGE.

90 dB is plenty. But all SPL figures are best stated in terms of
distance from the source i.e. 90 dB at 1 meter at 1 Watt. But that's
only for speaker parameters - for the important hearing protecting
purpose, all that's needed is the SPL and the distance from the source.

Post by Jim D
The FOH and the stage level are two separate things.

Or at least they should be ;)

Post by Jim D
So stop whinning about the FOH levels. No more asking " a friend " if
we're loud enough. I'm done with that.

Unless she can actually hear the FOH system from the perspective of the
audience, what possible basis can she have for evaluating its level in
the first place?

Post by Jim D
It occurs to me, she simply can't wrap her mind around the the stage
level and the FOH level being different.
Because she doesn't want to.

That's it, but why?

Post by Jim D
She did make reference at one point that her own voice was drowning out
the music. Huh. Well, how about you back off a little on the vocal
level ? That's the stickler. She's worked with loud bar bands so
long, so much, that she's stuck in a singing style of VERY LOUD.
There's not easing off, at least so far. Oh she, can, I've seen her do
it, but she doesn't want to.
Again, that phrase, because she doesn't want to.

Practicing the new technique is what's needed there.

Post by Jim D
Or, simply get the stage level down to where you don't need them.

THAT would be Ideal!!! I just HATE the notion of playing under some
kind of Handicap, where 'work-arounds' and other compensating and
mitigating techniques are used...particularly if they wouldn't even be
necessary if things were done RIGHT in the first place!!!

Post by Jim D
There's no reason musicians can't play at tolerable stage levels.

None at all. It just takes the right ATTITUDE!

Post by Jim D
Turn the stuff down and mic things for the FOH sound. They just don't want to.

Whatever makes it sound BEST - THAT *should* be the attitude!

Post by Jim D
We talked about that. I'm ok with her using a wedge IF she keeps it
pointed at her head.

That's always been how I prefer to use monitors - point them right at
*my* ears, and keep them close enough to where only minimal power is
needed for them to be effective...which is why I like the small ones
and really have no use for the monsters with the 15" speakers and more.

Post by Jim D
No angling it off to one side, cranking it up, and then complaing she
can't hear it. Point it directly at HER head, then adjust it to
whatever level she wants.

Besides, that's effectively making it part of the FOH system - even in
a similar power range, which is Silly.

Post by Jim D
Don't point it off towards the back wall, or the drums, or ME .... then
insist on cranking it up because " I can't hear it ".

Monitors work best when they're Personal...the idea is NOT to share them!

Post by Jim D
Yes, imagine the rewards of actually supplying what the customer wants.

Any other way is counterproductive.

Post by Jim D
She cares because her bar and ex muso friends tell her we're not loud
enough for their low brow tastes. Obviously she shares their
preference for loud music.

Now all they have to do is learn to use an SPL meter. Then they can
actually Know the levels before deciding ;)

Post by Jim D
Got a newly fried JBL apart on my bench right now thanks to " I can't
hear it " thinking.

I wouldn't fry equipment for anyone - neither they nor their Stupid
comments are worth it!!!

Post by Jim D
I told her I'd try and fix it, or she can throw it away. Haven't
looked at it in about two weeks, just because of other more pressing
issues. Eventually I guess we'll get it going again. Not a biggie, she
has another of these she can toast on her path to learning how monitors
work.

That's not learning, only ruining gear ;)
You'd have a better chance with 6th graders, because they'd at least be
up for learning ;)

Post by Jim D
She'll learn to back of the volume, or she won't.

It's easy enough, just turn counterclockwise rather than clockwise ;)

Post by Jim D
What's bizarre is I have several musician friends who think just like
her, loud or nothing.

At that's probably all that's left of there hearing - Nothing...from
being too loud for too long!
But why be so loud, and Stupid alone? So they try to get other FOOLS
to repeat history - nothing new under the sun.

Post by Jim D
Of course, none of them are currently in working bands.

Maybe they can't even hear what they play anymore.

Post by Jim D
Lots of talk about putting something together, bla bla. They might.
Then they'll play a handfull of gigs, be crazy loud as before, lose all
the repeat bookings, and be back where they are now, talking about
putting a band together.

Or they'll play so badly, because they can't hear, that every new gig
will be their last. I know of a band like that. No one but drunks, and
maybe even deaf ones at that, will tolerate them. It's truly Tragic,
but then Stupidity always is!

Post by Jim D
She knows that.

So then she therefore also knows that the proverbial ball is in her
court and that it's her move.

Post by Jim D
We can lose any of our jobs at any time. Go in, screw up bad enough,
and it's over, contracts or not.

I'd think so. I recall even hearing about a big name band that made
such a train wreck of a concert that they weren't even paid for it, and
when they tried to take their employer to court to try to collect,
after the evidence was presented, the court sided with the employer
finding them not liable for payment ;)

Post by Jim D
Management is complaining. As are some of the audience.

So they find it too loud too?

Post by Jim D
Wanna see something amazing ? Tell a musician or a chick singer they
are too loud. Then, just stand back and watch the reaction.

They probably wouldn't understand what that means ;)

Post by Jim D
That's what she's going thru now. It would be major entertainment if it
wasn't such a serious thing.

I've found that such situations are far too Disgusting to be funny.
Kind of reminds me of some of the accounts of the details regarding
plane crashes - if it weren't for the tragedy, it might even be funny,
in a Silly, Stupid way.

Post by Jim D
Well ..... yesterday didn't go too bad. We don't play this weekend.
I have some solo gigs next week, then the band is back at it on the
weekend. We have two more gigs on this years deal at the SD. If we get
thru those without getting fired, then who knows. It's all up to her
maturity level. Can she work as an adult, or will her stubborn child
inside blow it up ?

JimD
Depends on what kind of child ;)
An episode, specifically "The Bellero shield" of one of my all time
favorite programs, "The Outer Limits", mentioned that courage, such as
to boldly explore and experiment, are reserved "for very small children
and very dedicated scientists". That's my attitude - both of those, and
it results in a certain level of maturity to preserve it without
becoming overcome with panic. If she were to adopt THAT kind of
maturity, it would no doubt bear some awesome results!
Ouisie

I'm quietly resigning myself to going on as a solo gig after she blows
this trio up. That's ok with me. I told her point blank, face to face
last week that this is her problem, of her making. If she wants to blow
the band up over refusing to let of of the volume thing, then it's on
her head.

Only time will tell if that sunk in.

We can't work the better places and do it like we're in some low end biker bar.


JimD

[Ouisie]

Post by Jim D
I'm quietly resigning myself to going on as a solo gig after she blows
this trio up. That's ok with me. I told her point blank, face to face
last week that this is her problem, of her making. If she wants to blow
the band up over refusing to let of of the volume thing, then it's on her
head.

Well then at least she knows.

Post by Jim D
Only time will tell if that sunk in.

Hopefully there'll be enough time for it.

Post by Jim D
We can't work the better places and do it like we're in some low end biker bar.

JimD

Who needs the low life anyway?

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
I'm quietly resigning myself to going on as a solo gig after she blows
this trio up. That's ok with me. I told her point blank, face to face
last week that this is her problem, of her making. If she wants to blow
the band up over refusing to let of of the volume thing, then it's on
her head.

Well then at least she knows.

Post by Jim D
Only time will tell if that sunk in.

Hopefully there'll be enough time for it.

Post by Jim D
We can't work the better places and do it like we're in some low end biker bar.

JimD
Who needs the low life anyway?
Ouisie

How many musical partnerships end over something as simple as this ?
Probably a lot. Trying to get hobbiests to act like serious players
just isn't normally in the cards. Too many see playing out as some
sort of fantasy role playing thing or something.

From the audience it looks all just all fun, simple, easy. At least
rock and roll. I doubt people in the past going to a concert expected
the orchestra to go all nuts during the performance. Nor did any sane
person think that playing concert level violin was something any ol'
anybody could do.

Times change.

Jim

[Ouisie]

Post by Jim D
How many musical partnerships end over something as simple as this ?
Probably a lot.

I'd say it depends entirely on the Maturity, or Imaturity level.

Post by Jim D
Trying to get hobbiests to act like serious players just isn't normally in
the cards. Too many see playing out as some sort of fantasy role playing
thing or something.

They're only fantasies until they become reality, which is why playing nice
big concert venues is what I aspire to.
And it is a role to play - a very important one! Each performer has the role
of bringing the Music to life and imparting it's Vibe, meaningfulness, and a
trip into the Love Vibe, to the audience! That's no small task and
definitely not one for the overgrown naughty, Stupid children who never grew
up!

Post by Jim D
From the audience it looks all just all fun, simple, easy. At least rock
and roll.

I believe if they truly found it to be that way, they'd endeavor to become
performers and get into it too.
Personally, I observed that it's fun and much more...and anything but
'easy', quite the opposite really - LOTS of Relentless Effort and unwavering
Determination and Resolve- Hard Work, but much more than worth it because
it's a Labor of Love!!!

Post by Jim D
I doubt people in the past going to a concert expected the orchestra to go
all nuts during the performance. Nor did any sane person think that
playing concert level violin was something any ol' anybody could do.

I've heard it said, and wholeheartedly believe that concert goers go to
concerts to be MOVED by the performance, a Vibe not fully preserved in a
mere recording, which is why they buy concert tickets in addition to albums.

Post by Jim D
Times change.

Jim

The change happens over time, but it's the Stupid people who change for the
WORSE, as in Zombie Apocalypse.

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
How many musical partnerships end over something as simple as this ?
Probably a lot.

I'd say it depends entirely on the Maturity, or Imaturity level.

Post by Jim D
Trying to get hobbiests to act like serious players just isn't normally
in the cards. Too many see playing out as some sort of fantasy role
playing thing or something.

They're only fantasies until they become reality, which is why playing
nice big concert venues is what I aspire to.
And it is a role to play - a very important one! Each performer has the
role of bringing the Music to life and imparting it's Vibe,
meaningfulness, and a trip into the Love Vibe, to the audience! That's
no small task and definitely not one for the overgrown naughty, Stupid
children who never grew up!

Post by Jim D
From the audience it looks all just all fun, simple, easy. At least
rock and roll.

I believe if they truly found it to be that way, they'd endeavor to
become performers and get into it too.
Personally, I observed that it's fun and much more...and anything but
'easy', quite the opposite really - LOTS of Relentless Effort and
unwavering Determination and Resolve- Hard Work, but much more than
worth it because it's a Labor of Love!!!

Post by Jim D
I doubt people in the past going to a concert expected the orchestra to
go all nuts during the performance. Nor did any sane person think that
playing concert level violin was something any ol' anybody could do.

I've heard it said, and wholeheartedly believe that concert goers go to
concerts to be MOVED by the performance, a Vibe not fully preserved in
a mere recording, which is why they buy concert tickets in addition to
albums.

Post by Jim D
Times change.

Jim
The change happens over time, but it's the Stupid people who change for
the WORSE, as in Zombie Apocalypse.
Ouisie

Read somewhere that it takes, on average, 10,00 hours to be really good
at something like playing an instrument. What is that, like 8 hours a
day for 5 years ? Sounds reasonable to get up to just competent
level. Becoming really stand out amazing is more than that. That takes
that level of work PLUS some inborn thing called talent.

Not everyone can sing, or play well, no matter how they try. Talent is
a real thing.


JimD

[Ouisie]

Read somewhere that it takes, on average, 10,00 hours to be really good at
something like playing an instrument. What is that, like 8 hours a day for
5 years ? Sounds reasonable to get up to just competent level. Becoming
really stand out amazing is more than that. That takes that level of work
PLUS some inborn thing called talent.
Not everyone can sing, or play well, no matter how they try. Talent is a
real thing.

JimD

Not everyone is *disposed* to sing and/or play well, which also figures that
no matter how much they try, their results will be limited due to their
hearts not being fully into it, if they're not so disposed.

I have a different view of that. With extremely few, if any, exceptions,
nobody is born with talent - it's far more likely to be born 'rich' i.e.
'loaded' with Filthy Lucre, and speaking of which, I recall a preacher on
the radio mentioning that an actual Biblical unit of Filthy Lucre, namely a
"talent", was about as much as most people would earn in an entire year.
Clearly, this related a monetary talent, or a skillful talent, to a lot of
hard work, which I've personally discovered, as have you, to be the case
where Music is concerned - or anything else requiring skill for that matter.

Rather, what one may be born with is the *aptitude* for those various
activities, that a person may find they're *apt* to pursue.

But talent is something that Must be Earned by Diligent, Honest, and
Dedicated effort over the long term, sustained by genuine Love for what
they're doing, literally a Labor of Love...which is why Music makers so
regularly practice, at least the ones worth listening to...to Increase and
Improve their talent, and thus further enhance what they Truly Love.

Ouisie

[Jim D]

Post by Ouisie

Post by Jim D
Read somewhere that it takes, on average, 10,00 hours to be really good
at something like playing an instrument. What is that, like 8 hours a
day for 5 years ? Sounds reasonable to get up to just competent
level. Becoming really stand out amazing is more than that. That takes
that level of work PLUS some inborn thing called talent.
Not everyone can sing, or play well, no matter how they try. Talent is
a real thing.

JimD
Not everyone is *disposed* to sing and/or play well, which also figures
that no matter how much they try, their results will be limited due to
their hearts not being fully into it, if they're not so disposed.
I have a different view of that. With extremely few, if any,
exceptions, nobody is born with talent - it's far more likely to be
born 'rich' i.e. 'loaded' with Filthy Lucre, and speaking of which, I
recall a preacher on the radio mentioning that an actual Biblical unit
of Filthy Lucre, namely a "talent", was about as much as most people
would earn in an entire year. Clearly, this related a monetary talent,
or a skillful talent, to a lot of hard work, which I've personally
discovered, as have you, to be the case where Music is concerned - or
anything else requiring skill for that matter.
Rather, what one may be born with is the *aptitude* for those various
activities, that a person may find they're *apt* to pursue.
But talent is something that Must be Earned by Diligent, Honest, and
Dedicated effort over the long term, sustained by genuine Love for what
they're doing, literally a Labor of Love...which is why Music makers so
regularly practice, at least the ones worth listening to...to Increase
and Improve their talent, and thus further enhance what they Truly Love.
Ouisie

This is one of those chicken or egg questions. Which comes first ?

When i taught guitar for a while, there were students that could easily
pick things up, and others who were hopeless. Maybe the hopeless ones
didn't want to learn, or maybe it was just much harder for them so they
gave up. I don't know.

JimD

[Ouisie]

Post by Jim D
This is one of those chicken or egg questions. Which comes first ?

That's Darwinian 'evolution' nonsense.

In Creation, the creature was Made first, and the 'egg' came as a result of
that, later.

So the creature, namely the musician, in this case, came first, and their
disposition to cultivating talent in something(s) came later, maybe when the
person heard a song they liked, and/or saw a band, noticed a particular
musician and thought, "gee, I'd like to do that", and then FOLLOWED UP on
that notion with LOTS of HARD WORK!

The Foreigner tune; "Jukebox Hero" mentions such a situation.

Post by Jim D
When i taught guitar for a while, there were students that could easily
pick things up, and others who were hopeless. Maybe the hopeless ones
didn't want to learn, or maybe it was just much harder for them so they
gave up. I don't know.

JimD

Are you absolutely sure of that? What I mean is that are you absolutely sure
that those students who 'easily' picked things up weren't in fact so highly
motivated that their failure was simply not an option to them?

And could it also be that those who seemed 'hopeless' possibly instead had
hopes somewhat less than those conducive to indomitable resolve to
accomplish the objective at hand?

Ouisie